They look like old mouse traps. We have both a 250 watt and 1100 watt 48VDC Exeltech inverters here as spares in case of catastrophic damage to our main Outback Power System. When you divide your battery capacity by the solar output is should never be more than 15% as this is too much charge and can over heat the batteries causing damage. I have two Outback VFX3648 inverters operating 120/240 split phase sine wave 60hz similar to what the utilities provide in North America. What it does is take the 48 volt DC, inverts it to AC, reduces the voltage down to 12VAC and rectifies it back to DC. Also what is your opinion of lithium verses agm? You and the who argument industry are very wrong about 12 volt systems. I can make a drawing if you want. If there is no load on the turbine at all times it could over-speed and be damaged electrically or mechanically. I’ll have to tell you my venture into the diesel-electric hybrid pleasure cruiser business. My main problem is even a mini refrigerator trips my inverter every time and it will even start to beat if I turn on a squirrel cage fan in my home while running the small television. If I have a battery failure I have to remove the remove the bad battery and cut my storage to 2/3rds until I can get another battery but I am still operational. Using 48 V batteries is usually a good idea in an off grid system. I really want this to work first time without going broke. Lithium batteries of course are high quality and very expensive. I am from South Africa and want to start my own of the grid system. Sorry, I get carried away with this stuff. I would first not make a VAWT and instead go with the Horizontal axis type of turbine. I am off grid 100%solar. Even though I might generate 17.4 volts and 23 amps from 4 panels and run it through the charger controller, how do I configure the wiring to equalize the charge per battery so the lead battery doesn’t get all the charge and the tail end battery gets little? However as you have decided on 48 volts, you will need a 48 volt inverter. There are also times when I will recommend 12 volts for a tiny renewable energy system for a cabin, cottage or tiny home. And thats in the process now of being done. There is a way of converting 48VDC to 12VDC using a 48-12 volt converter. That way if there was ever a major system failure while we are away on vacation, the separate system will keep the heat operational. Yes you are correct. But, the main reason our system works so well is that we have NO large amp appliances. Hi Ty, Yes you can charge a 24 volt battery bank with 12 volt panels. All super expensive and almost impossible to find. 12 volts might work fine for them. I am also looking at a possible 1000w wind generator that is 48 volts. My backup generator is 3 phase 13kW. Can’t afford Surettes. Cut your long yard story short with this time saver. Now my current setup or beginner set-up as I call it is two 250 watt solar panels run to a charge controller that is 20 amp and the cheaper model. A better scenario would be to wire your 8 batteries into two groups of 4 and parallel the strings to make a 24 volt system. I live in a 105 year old house, I resided it and in the process I ripped off all the outside lap siding, pulled out 18 huge bags of crumpled news paper, insulated with R19, added 2×3″ galvanized foundation ledge, 2×2’s and 2″ closed cell foam to the already R19 2×6 construction then had it sheather with 1/2″ plywood. All charge controllers are the same, the amperage rating is based on the battery voltage; the higher the voltage the more power the controller can handle. The same goes for travel trailers. I had a close friend take his life after a long struggle with opiate addiction around the same time time you wrote this comment. What MPPT controller would you recommend to charge the two parallel 48 volt banks with? This free fix will make a huge difference in the performance of your system. I’m also willing to go totally solar if its feasible…………. Good for you on the Tiny House. Will this arrangement blow up my Fm60… I would like to try and capitalize power production in the lower light conditions…. If you upgrade to 1000AH from 600AH you will almost have doubled your battery bank due to the fact the 1000 AH bank will stay cooler and produce more energy. Since you have (literally) been around the barn with these considerations for a number of years, do you have a particular MPPT controller you might recommend? You can even buy batteries that are 12 volt. It makes no sense to retrofit systems that are already working fine. After burning up a few $2500 inverters in under 1 year I swapped to Mean Well and have no losses anymore. The current charger cannot charge the Lithium batteries to a high enough voltage to completely charge a Lithium. When I get home I will answer your questions and help you as much as I can. Wow. When you select a product from BatteryStuff.com, you will get the highest quality recharging products available on the market today. If my fellow off gridder only needs a 2000 watt or smaller inverter, than 12 volts might be the way to go. 1 0 obj << /Type /Page /Parent 331 0 R /Resources << /ColorSpace << /CS2 342 0 R /CS3 343 0 R >> /ExtGState << /GS2 366 0 R /GS3 367 0 R >> /Font << /TT3 339 0 R /TT4 336 0 R /TT5 337 0 R >> /ProcSet [ /PDF /Text ] >> /Contents 2 0 R /MediaBox [ 0 0 612 792 ] /CropBox [ 0 0 612 792 ] /Rotate 0 /StructParents 1 >> endobj 2 0 obj << /Filter /FlateDecode /Length 3 0 R >> stream You can buy 12 volt lighting, 12 volt coffee makers, 12 volt fans, and many other 12 volt appliances. Wouldn’t it just max out at 60a and not let anymore power through or would it smoke Power up. I still would like some clarification on a few concepts if you’re able to help. Magnum is not so pretty but just as robust and quite a bit cheaper. 1a. Is this a weekend RV or used every day? I would definitely make two 48 volt battery banks and parallel them. 1 laptop 80 watts for 6 hours / day Thanks for your help. Currently have two identical LiFE batteries wired in series to power a small transmitter. On all the other info your have, especially batteries I love it. I want to create a 48 volt system, 4 banks of 4. That would require 4 of the Windy Nation modules you are looking at. Thanks! You would need to make a list and figure out how many watt hours per day you would consume or how many kilowatt hours per day you would consume. Gonna try to be helpful, not mean. Let’s look at the specs of one the most popular charge controllers on the planet, Outback Power’s FM60. The biggest issues are the charging parameters. If you’re running 60-65 volts through it, how would you distribute the current to get an equal charge into each of the batteries? You can check your battery’s state of charge by reading voltage (not super accurate but OK) or the specific gravity of the batteries (very accurate). The cheap high frequency inverters will never handle the surge of the compressor. That amount of cable is very expensive. DC-DC converters inverter the 24 or 48 volt DC electricity to AC, reduce the voltage to 12 volts AC and then rectify it back to DC. For one thing, Welding cable is the ONLY way to go. The maximum surge current is now only a mere 125 amps or 6000 watts divided by 48 volts. I am sure this is too late. I had someone else develop the system for me, for a 38 foot retro designed pleasure cruiser that incorporated and utilized all of what you’ve done but for marine propulsion. Appreciate your meaning. Thank you for reading…………….Dan. LIE, Welding cable is ONLY Fine stranded for flexibility, not superior ampacity. Then you would use an MPPT (maximum power point tracking) charge controller that you can program if, when and how often the batteries are equalized. I have been reading and reading and reading and the more I research the more I get confused. the system is 2 sets of 2 volt storage batteries { 61 comments… read them below or add one }, Greetings, 54 volts and 12 to 18 amps/hr when combined? 48 volt battery bank is the answer unless you can only afford a bank of 8 batteries. The only difference is you have not connected the battery banks unless you have them all wired in parallel. Ours are Soviet made, also are made in Finland and can handle from 50 to 500 amps depending on the snap wire gauge. Second your inverter needs to be a low frequency model that can handle the surge of your refigerator. I would like to configure two 48 volt battery banks to alternately feed the inverter. Either add more batteries or decrease your solar output and you will be good to go. I would most definitely go with lead acid batteries as these are the most forgiving of over and under charge. Correct me if I’m wrong. You could likely sell your MS2812 and upgrade to a MS4024 or MS4048 for not that much more money. What Voltage Should My Battery Bank Be? You are correct that the voltage drop (due to high amperage) is a major problem in 12 volt systems. I have tried. The never ending mis information about “wire size savings” and you must use fine stranded welding cable has permeated the solar world like a poison. While 12 volt appliances are readily available, the usual way of doing things now in all but the smallest of systems is using 24 or even 48 volt battery based systems and then using an inverter to provide 120/240VAC (North America) or 230VAC (the rest of the world) for your loads. My roof got the same treatment, they indexed my home in total as average of +R29 radiant loss ratio when they did the siding install. When different batteries are mixed the whole battery bank will operate as well as the least AH battery in the bunch or the most worn out battery of the bunch. A 12-volt battery is not a 12-volt battery. I know the modules and charge controller and high end inverter are not cheap but this is your home and you need everything to work. Email photos to jody@solarhomestead.com if you get a chance. Flex-Force 24 in. 48 volt battery systems are commonly found in golf carts, off-the-grid battery systems, and forklifts. “plus other things” is not enough info to design a proper working solar system. I’m considering lithium iron phosphate LifeP04 3.25v 300amps. But there are some of course. This way the 11,400 watts would only be charging the battery bank at between 15 or 16% of the battery bank’s capacity. It is best to stick with flooded lead acid batteries for the scooter. My batteries seem good but they are just 8Ds and five years old. The only way to blow up a FM60 is to put more than 150 volts DC into it or connect it to the battery backwards. That is part of the charge controller’s job. You can always use a 120VAC to 12VDC converter/charger for your 12 volts loads if you have to. There are no MPPT charge controllers that will charge two separate battery banks at 48 volts. I don’t think you can get away without it. Another reason 12V battery banks are a poor choice for any “serious” sized system is the voltage depression that comes with large loads. Also how would it impact my amp rating? Let’s say you went with a 2000-2500 watt inverter…you would need 2/0 (00) cable connecting your batteries and your inverter. So far, I have not encountered any one doing it this way. The maximium DC input to the inverter is 68 volts and the inverter’s continuous output is 4400 VA. Not quite sure how to do that or whether I should do a single bank of 48 volts/370 amps? The at rest voltage of the batteries in your scooter is 6.25 volts per battery bank for a total of 18.75 volts when wired in series. It is entirely up to you whether you increase the size of your battery bank. If you want to add another bank to your existing bank you MUST make sure they are of the same family of batteries. Encase your wires in 2.5″ metal framing track, its UL grade grounding listed, no restrictions to its use and its 20% the price of conduit. Since your inverter and charge controller need 48 volts, your system is now down until you get a new battery. You have 5 X 3000 watt inverters. Many charge controllers do not have charging profile for Lithium compared to FLA or AGM. Thanks for your question. Keep in mind I am no electrician by any means but m pretty mechanically inclined and have a basic understanding so don’t get too technical on me please but let me know what I need to do to run these appliances. It takes time for the battery’s voltage to rise as it is fed current. (Remember that VOLTS X AMPS = WATTS) or (WATTS/VOLTS = AMPS). You may have to buy multiple charge controllers at 12 volts or even 24 depending on the size of your solar array. My experience with DC-DC converters has not been great as they essentially change the DC to AC then change the voltage and then convert back to DC. Thanks for the reply and the information. I’ve been experimenting with a 48 volt to 12 volt DC converter. While the battery is not being charged and not powering anything, you can use your voltmeter and get a reading. A 100 watt module will produce 100 watts (really 75 or so in reality) regardless of the voltage, whether they are in parallel or series. Each bank is made up of the Older Exide IIP 2v batteries in racks. Looking forward to hear from you I have broken all the rules to cost. I would definitely go with a couple of 48 volt Outback inverters wired 120/240 split phase or their Radian model. The way it is wired now the batteries closest to the inverter cables are doing most of the work while the batteries at the end of the bank almost sit dormant. And my battery Bank is run in parallel with the inverter connected to the last battery still at 12 volts. My choice would be to operate the servos from one battery one month and the other the next month. If I took 48 of those and split them into 3 paralled banks of 16 ea in series is there a way to connect both this new battery bank and the other to the system so I wouldn’t have to manually switch over to other if one gets low. Thank you Jody, The inverters cost the same. But if you can operate your 12VDC loads with only 10 amps it is viable. For such battery banks, charging would be very slow. I have an electric bike that has 3 12 volt 7 amp batteries and range is an issue. It truly helps give me more understanding. I would still like to know which MPPT you would recommend for the application you described. They are also high frequency to be cheap making them unreliable. Reliability and efficiency and have been the main issues. I have an off the grid cabin. A upgrade from R10 average. The most common battery voltage is now 24 volts and soon 48 volt systems will be the most popular. Thanks for your help, I will probably go with the 12volt turbine then. I know for 4 modules, I’m going to need a better MPPT controller but can’t figure out what happened to these. Cost, about $20 to $50 each. Magnum Energy’s high quality MS4024 inverter/battery charger. It seems obvious. I agree…I am 100% against 48-12 and 24-12 volt DC-DC converters. Buy the correct amperage (including surge power when the servos start up) and voltage converter. Please list items like this: 2 led bulbs 7 watts for 4 hours/ day Even at lower power consumption levels (like 1500W — water or space heater), if the bank is lower than about 70% SOC the voltage is depressed too far and the inverter cuts out (user-defined @ 11.0V to protect the batteries). Jody, The MPPT goes into the front end of the other two. So the choice there was obvious. I think I might get it with your diagram but not totally sure. We always recommend two strings no matter what voltage you decide for your battery bank. : ). I wish i had saved some $ and stuck with the MS2012, or sized the whole system up to 24V batteries. Good question. Then add a dump controller like a Tristar TS60 or a Xantrex/Schneider C60 connected to a suitable dump load. If you have any questions or something to add on this topic please comment below or contact us. One type of battery will always be under charged and the other will be overcharged when mixing batteries. I hope you can upgrade to 24 or 48 volts and most of your problems will disappear…Jody, Thank you for telling us about your experiences. That’s just my personal opinion…that is all. I’m not handy but I can follow directions and I have a good enough job to buy a good system but I know the packages are way overated. Thanks for your question. A 12 volt 4000 watt inverter is not feasible anyway as the amperage would be far too high. 3 inverters /chargers Selectronic sp-pro spmc241-au. my goal is to extend the range of the motor and bike. The 48v inverters are fairly expensive, but at least 120v is 120v (AC) no matter how you create it. Would be 2400 Ah total. What voltage should I use for my battery bank? At 12 volts (really about 14.4) that is 27.8 amps (14.4 volts X 27.8 amps = 400 watts). 0 Ah lithium-ion cells that deliver no-fade power for maximum job performance. This would keep the wear to both batteries as close as possible. They can surge up to two or three times their rated wattage. These dump controllers monitor battery voltage and start to dump power into a water/air heater as the battery bank completes its absorption charge. That is my dream but I have 4 children and I just don’t think we could do it right now. If we compare your solar array of 11,400 watts and your battery storage of 57,600 watt hours, the battery bank is too small. Connect your servos to one battery one month and another battery the other month. At 48 volts, each inverter surges at 125 amps (6000 watts divided by 48 volts equals 125 amps). Also, will a 12 volt 4000 watt inverter work or do I need to get a 48 volt inverter? Get smart with the Thesis WordPress Theme from DIYthemes. The most common question I get as a solar consultant is…. Thank you so much for your kind words. I have broken the rules myself to get the job done. Thanks in advance for any time you spend assisting me. I still have all this stuff and decided to educate MYSELF and power up the shop with solar and the 9 enersys batteries left I haven’t sold. If you have a 48 volt system like you do, the resting voltage will be 50 volts for FLA or close to it, while a lithium 48 volt bank will rest at about 52 volts. The MS2012 is a low frequency (big, rugged and heavy) pure sine wave inverter with a massive power factor corrected (PFC) battery charger that works well with fuel powered generators. Your battery and solar module configuration will work great. I am designing my solar system for the first time. Third, voltage reduction to use 12 volt lighting is not expensive. So it would seem that 12 volts is the magic voltage! (Not the maximum power one) with three deep cycle marine batteries 12 volt. Power your cordless iON tools the way with the 24-volt iON+ 24VBAT-LTE lithium-ion battery. Same with the A/C unit? Most states have no DC loop code restrictions. At 24 volts (really about 28.8) that is 13.9 amps (28.8 volts X 13.9 amps = 400 watts). High frequency inverters on the other hand are light, cheap and don’t have the surge capacity or reliability. I would love to answer your questions right now however I an in Zimbabwe training solar installers (http://globalsolar.co.zw/) until Saturday. Annemarie. One step at a time and eventually you will have everything working perfectly. Not once did I regret it. If you were to build that same system using 24 volts, the maximum (surge) current would be cut in half or 250 amps. It is a Trace PWM (pulse wave modulation) CC. You will know if it is low frequency if it is heavy and not super light. Would I want to have 4 12 volt batteries hooked up two sets of 2 batteries to equal the 48 volts that the wind generator would put out? It is a big project. I can get a 12vdc one at walmart or a truck stop if I absolutely had to. It really sounds like a voltage drop issue due to small cables/wires. Thank you for your info and I would love to see pictures of your system, building and mounting system….Jody. Just limit your inverter to 2000 watts such as Magnum Energy’s MS2012 and you will have a rugged and reliable inverter/battery charger. Third I am assuming your battery/inverter cables are too small not allowing the current/voltage to get to your appliances. Its ran with a 22″ radiator fan pulling 5.90 amps and 6 – 100 mm fans pulling 2.8 amps for the exchangers drafting tubes. 2100 watts of solar array, two systems (1400 and 700). You are going to need about a 2500 watt high end inverter like Magnum Energy, Outback Power etc. I think they are fine for small RV, street/sign lighting and cottages they are fine as the amperage is usually manageable in smaller systems like that. It is a 60 amp MPPT (maximum power point tracking) charge controller and the 60 amp rating refers to the battery voltage. A Good rule is to never charge your batteries at more than 15% of their capacity or they will operate hot and wear out faster. They are horribly inefficient, don’t last and cannot handle any surge (even a small 10-20 watt Ivan Labs circulating pump. 60-Volt Max Lithium-Ion Cordless Hedge Trimmer - 2.5 Ah Battery and Charger Included Spruce up this spring and with the Toro 60-Volt Spruce up this spring and with the Toro 60-Volt Maximum Battery 24 in. So while we “can” pull up to 2800W at a time, that is 367A…about a “C/3” load. Or you could use one or two Magnum Energy 120/240 inverters. and a 24 volt charger inverter. Had to put it on a thermostat to keep my wife from wrapping up in blankets in august. Most important factor is NEVER put this material in your home, on your home or next to your home. You may find that changing the size of the cabling and rewiring gets you to a point you can live with it and then add items as you can afford. Any and all advice is welcome and I won’t be upset if you think I’m off base and have a better suggestion. Many will catch fire or have a Mosfet failure in the case of high input volts from a controller. Hope that helps. I would either decrease the amount of solar modules or increase the size of your batteries. What items will you be operating on the battery bank? 3 phase is neat and not that uncommon like it was 20 years ago. I can send you some nice drafts of designs If you had a pic upload option. I would like someone that is not out to sell me something answer this question. Dale. That is a huge amount of current requiring two runs of 4/0 cable (OOOO cable) to keep the voltage drop to a minimum. Ty. 57,600 watt hours (battery storage) divided by 11,400 watts (solar array) = 20%. If you purchase four 17.4 volt 5.75 amp Windy Nation panels and put them in series you would have 69.6 volts roughly going into your MPPT charge controller at 5.75 amps (69.6 x 5.75 amps = 400 watts). First…I would say that “we in the industry who are wrong about 12 volt battery banks” are not wrong. At a company such as http://www.lugsdirect.com I think you can purchase approved terminals for about $1.50-$2.00 each for 2/0-4/0 cable ends but I would have to check on that. Just the above mentioned reasons should be enough to make you carefully consider using 24 or 48 volts for your next renewable energy battery bank but there is more. (hoping it is better, too). Hi all; Not going to happen. I do see that there are LOTS of 12v gadgets/appliances readily available. Okay I have a ”Tiny” house 12 by 20 ft. Congrats on being off grid. You will find it won’t be much less efficient than your 48-12 converter depending on the model you have. My L.E.D. All three stators will be mounted on one shaft one on top of the other using aluminum and stainless steel to not disturb the magnets,all three stators will be powered with a VAWT design wind turbine with 8 deep cycle batteries. I would love to see your setup. You have two options: The problem as I see it in most cases is peoples lack of common sense. Good for you trying something out like this. It also has the effect of making the batteries last longer due to Peukart’s law. I have seen 48-12 converters with efficiency ratings of 45-85% depending on the model. When the battery has reached its bulk voltage level the charge current will slowly decrease as batteries become more charged. Our electricity is more on loadshedding and is becoming very expensive. I ordered my cabling, 6awg wire for multi panel groups, and 3/0 for inverters from Wireandcable.com for under half the cost of that “solar required wire” and made my interconnects 6v(12vdc) with typle k 3/4″ copper pipe which is capable of over 900 amps and did it for $1.20 a battery. I have 12 72 watt, 12 volt solar panels that I want to run 4 in each series and to create 48 volt panels. 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